A lack of ventilation halted some attempts to organise classes on the first day of term at the new Nicolson Institute.
Pupils and teachers were left drenched in sweat and a temperature of nearly 30 degrees was recorded in one classroom.
One staff member, who asked not to be named, said many pupils complained of the heat and feeling claustrophobic as safety bars had been erected which she said gave an “unfortunate prison-like feel” to the school.
It was also claimed that the school went into a kind of “lockdown” at lunchtime and intervals with pupils unable to get access to teachers and other staff because of the enhanced security measures.
One senior pupil wrote on Facebook: “Few of us actually liked our first day there. Only one tiny window can open in most classrooms. It is so stuffy it is yuck. Our teacher was so hot she was sick and so were we.”
Western Isles Council meanwhile ignored the complaints and its senior figures hailed the first day as a great success.
The new school, which is owned by a private developer and leased back to the council, cost £29 million.
I thought it was just my kids being supersensitive . they said they were suffering badly .
If it is stiffling in the summer it will be freezing in the winter. Hope this is not another Labour PFI disaster. Should have used local builders. Maybe it’s just a one off ???
The architecture community has been pouring scorn over this building (and Sir E Scott) for around a week now.
http://www.urbanrealm.com/news/3661/Stornoway%E2%80%99s_Nicolson_Centre_completes.html#comment
My first thought when I saw the video of the interior was that all that’s missing is the voice over…”Norman Stanley Fletcher…”. When does the safety net get fitted?
What utter rubbish. One person does not a’ community’ make, since all the comments are likely to be your own. One day of hot weather and everyone is complaining, perhaps the air conditioning was removed as a cost saving LOL. It is not owned by a private developer. Used local builders? Why? So it would still be unfinished and cost twice as much?
To RM – you should be a tabloid journalist! There are two posters and one and a half negative comments on the link you posted. And a similar number of positive statements.
As for the blog, maybe there was teething issues on a hot day, but last night’s feature on the news seemed to contrast with your reporting.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01lyj49/An_La_16_08_2012/
I suppose it is a conspiracy! The sky is falling….the sky is falling….
Poor Momus can’t see the wood for the trees, oh! Dear!
Im sorry but today isnt too hot and the windows are thrown wide open (all of the ones in the classrooms that I could see anyway. But perhaps thats to deal with the ammonia spillage?? Would hardly think all windows would need to be opened in that case, though.
it is a fact – It has been uncomfortably hot and ventilation is a problem both days but there are always snags with new buildings. people here are too defensive . Momus sets a bad but regrettably typical local example of attacking the messenger . just admit the problem and it can be dealt with . the chemical spillage was just an accident which could have happened anywhere – teachers partner
DC, I think Momus has better eyesight than you, what I can see is six new schools delivered on time, within budget, to the best design standards, suitable for providing first class facilities for over 50% of the pupils in the Western Isles for many years to come. Well done the previous councils for this fantastic achievement, and especially well done former Councillor Morag Monro, past chair of Education, for having the foresight and tenacity to see this major project through, despite the constant SNiPing. What a legacy, pity other former chairs messed up so spectacularly with their areas of responsibility!
Three cheers for Monkey Subsidy, he has strung two words together. It is just a pity the new Nicolson is not ready. I’m also told the Point school was subject to a leaking roof a number of times last term????. Did the old school’s roof leak?? no complaints for several years before it was knocked down. Maybe the people from Point can give more info.
DC, thanks for the accolade, however unintentional. So the new school has teething problems in the first two days, big deal, you want pupils to go back to being taught in inadequate buildings? I think most people are very well satisfied with the six new schools, and the pupils will, I am sure prefer their brand new schools. Are you seriously suggesting that pupils should have been condemned to be taught in Victorian era schools?
Hmm, judging by your previous posts, perhaps you are.
@DC Wood for the trees? Your trolling attitude to fellow contributors is not a particularly attractive character trait is it?
What I object to ill informed commentary. Suggesting that the ‘architecture community’ is pouring scorn over the schools when 99% of the negativity is coming from one individual, more than likely also the very same RM, is pretty low and underhand. Tabloid journalism indeed.
It’s a simple fact that if it’s hot outside it will be hot inside. No school is air conditioned and it has been exceptionally warm this week. Couple that with 20 kids and tons of technology then the temperature is undoubtedly going to be warmer inside than out in any given room. There are however maximum permissible limits that are better than in many mainland schools.
The schools are owned by the Council – FACT
There is no local contractor that could have built the Nicolson, now or two years ago, to the same timescales, cost and quality. Fact. Interesting article in the Gazette this week on the schools and local companies. Worth a read before making any more spurious comments.
As for not being ready, well the pupils were all there yesterday and today, exactly as intended when the programme was set nearly three years ago. Is it a little sparse and a little bare? Yes it is, because it hasn’t been lived in yet. No pin boards, no plants, no real signs of occupation as yet in the circulation spaces. That will change in time just like the primaries that have been open or a year now as the staff and pupils settle in and add colour and character. Think of it as a blank canvas.
Stupid comments like safety nets are not really helpful. Is there any reason why a pupil is more likely to throw themselves off a balcony in the school than in any other public building, or off the harbour for that matter, where there is no safety guardrail? Any other misbehaviour is more reflective of their upbringing rather than the fault of the building IMHO.
Some people need to get a sense of perspective and a large dose of reality.
As for the chemical ‘spill’ that was a false alarm.
Momus I’m glad you got that lot all out and I, hope you are feeling better now.
Momus either has no sense of humour or has never seen Porridge or both. Is that you Dan?
What a pile of hot air Moanus. “There is no local contractor that could have built the Nicolson, now or two years ago, to the same timescales, cost and quality” what a slap in the face for the local builders, and a cavalier attitude about the young of the island. “Interesting article in the Gazette this week on the schools and local companies. Worth a read before making any more spurious comments” what article? I don’t buy the Gazette
@ Subsidy
You show me a local contractor that could manage £70m of turnover in 2 year period and deliver on time to a high quality. They don’t exist on the Western Isles. And don’t talk about splitting them up into separate contracts. Zzzzz
What does exist are local contractors and local tradesmen – including many young guys – who know their limits, rolled their sleeves up and got on with it. Bardons, Neil MacKay, O’Mac to name but three of the many. Others have had huge chips on their shoulder and expected work to be handed to them on a plate at any cost.
Even UBC, always held up as an exemplar, had the sense to realise they couldn’t compete and partnered with another (Northern Irish) contractor. They lucked out unfortunately.
Send me your email and I will PayPal 80p for a copy of the Gazette. You can obviously read. Processing and understanding is obviously a bigger problem
PS Lookup Momus In Wikipedia.
And I’m annoyed because I know the massive, positive contribution that hundreds of islanders have made to the success of the schools project, whether individually or collectively, and inane comments in this blog, websites and in newspapers do them a complete disservice. .
Monkey.
its not a simple fact that if its hot outside it’ll be hot inside. Do your homework in enviromental science and you’ll know that. There are a series of stack ventilators on the Nicolson roofline, with positive input air intakes on the facades at the windows. The system should pull air in and expell rotten hot air out. Its not working. No architect or engineer worth their salt would accept the fact that it should be hot because of 20people in a classroom – your taught to calculate for that!
Your making it up as you go along. My suspicion here is that if the ventilation systems are computer controlled then it might be a simple switch as a solution – but I would have expected it to have been tested before now.
In terms of local contractors being used – YES always after being sub-cotracted from FMP – like Matheson hall – which wasnt an original part of the overall contract so why were FMP awardd it in the first place when they needed a local firm to carry out the work. Why then, when the lowest fee bidder went bust did they then go to the same price contractor and make them LOWER their fee. Who made profit – FMP….
@RM
What evidence is there that its not working? None. Define hot. What is hot for you others will not complain about. And vice versa. Its very subjective. Like design. Or choice of materials.
Yes yes, there are some really sophisticated and expensive passive ventilation strategies that will resolve excessive heat gains even on the very, very rare occassions those environmental conditions occur in the Western Isles. Law of diminishing returns. Get your qualifications, some real world experience and stop navel gazing. Not on the Western Isles. The REAL real world. Or go back to moaning about the town hall.
As for local contractors, it’s called commercial reality and it exists beyond the realms of HS1. No-one twists their arm so it’s a commercial decision. Why do work you know to be loss leading? Maybe some architects are fortunate at being able to charge clients extornionate fees for a cack service an and average design but the majority understand their role in society and that does not give them a monopoly on being right.
Next?
What do you mean ‘next’. Your behaving like a little upstart.
Im not trying to suggest that you know next to nothing about environmental science – what you say (with arrogance and false bravado) is highlighting that fact quite succinctly.
Basically, passive stack systems are not ‘really sophisticated’ – they are actually one of the simplest ways of ventilating a building other than shallow plan depth with openable windows. Stack systems have been used for thousands of years in indigenous architecture around the world, and its great to see a system like this adopted on the Nicolson. You can see the stack ventilators also on the Pentland building, and yes, also on the town hall (although the vents were superseded by mechanical ventilation systems which, depending on your viewpoint, work less well).
Solar heat gains from sunshine are not ‘rare’ as you suggest. Why else did vernacular buildings orientate themselves with a front to the sun, back to the wind? Casual heat gains on a building like the nicolson are huge, and as such needs a system designed to cope with it. The simple, whimsical nyaff-like and ill-informed comments by yourself is doing nothing but entertaining all readers of this blog and making you look like a fool who is unaware of the base contribution you make.
No-one here is implying they are right (except you) – but if you want a debate on environmental strategies then bring it on… but frankly its all stale air to me.
P.S. There is more than one objector to the Nicolson on Urban Realm… Also check out Sir E Scott on the same website.
Also. the evidence it isnt working is that classrooms are recording temperatures of 30degrees heat. That, in anyones book – is too hot!
Health and Safety are being told Nicolson classrooms have been over 30 degrees this week. Here’s one UK union’s findings.
Children are being taught in classrooms that are too hot, teachers have warned.
The NASUWT said that excessive temperatures hamper pupils’ ability to learn and teachers’ ability to teach.
A poll published by the union has found that 93.7% of teachers have experienced temperatures in excess of 24C, while a third (33%) have faced temperatures of over 30C.
The survey is based on more than 1,000 monitoring forms by teachers, containing over 19,000 temperature recordings taken during four weeks last summer.
It also found that more than three quarters (77.2%) of teachers have faced temperatures of 24C on at least a quarter of the days during the survey period.
Almost half of those who took part (44%) said that there is some impact on a pupil’s ability to learn when a classroom is at between 24C and 26C, while 30% said the impact was considerable or very considerable.
And 50% said there is some impact on a teacher’s ability to teach at 24-26C.
Anyone? Like whom? A Catalan for example?
The truth is people such as yourself are happy to throw uninformed supposition, hearsay and rumour around like fact. And its demeaning – not to me. I couldnt care less but to the many hundreds who have made a POSITIVE contribution. What have you ever achieved? Its easy being a crtitic, lets see some of the perfect, major projects beyond small scale residential you have actually in the real world as opposed to the studentville.
Its too hot. Its too cold. Its too windy. Its too wet. Its too dry.Its too cloudy.
Its Scotland. Get a grip.
I’m sure nobody meant to make a pigs ear of the schools projects but the council were warned of the impacts of their (then) intended actions and as a consequence its screwed up.
I was only merely suggesting what the problems with the ventilation strategy could be – which as I said above, is likely very easily fixed (i.e. if its a software issue on a computer system). I dont see how that is ‘supposition, hearsay, and rumour’.
I wouldn’t be one to try to list achievements – as there is always more that can be done. And its bizarre how you seem to think that I’m a student? In any case, I think your comments have led to some contemplation as I go forth to ring up some gongs or such like that will maybe impress the likes of you armchair bloggers out to bayonet others whilst pretending to know everything about nothing.
Smacks of an unsatisfied lifestyle if you ask me. I’ll leave you to it.
The Moirs the merrier as far as i’m concerned.
@ Momus
I can show you a number of local contractors who as a joint venture could have done the work, but you your folly is evident when you say that it had to be done over 2 years, as for quality… ” They don’t exist on the Western Isles” and they never will with that poor attitude, to be given a chance to price would have been a good start “And don’t talk about splitting them up into separate contracts”. Why in the name of the wee man not?? And spreading it out over 4-8 years, the islands construction scene would have been secure, and there would have been any amount of apprenticeships. But that seems to much like common sense for some.
Momus you are a disgrace and a very sad person. People work hard to promote these islands to encourage young people to come and stay here and all you want to do is unfaily destroy this positive image. You should be ashamed of yourself. The builders on these islands are as good as anywhere else. The indications are that the new school was not properly commissioned or there is some mistakes. The evidence to date does not reflect well for the council, designers and builders. Time will tell.
Shift the focus of enquiry further afield re new school building standards, I suggest. Has anyone enquired about the new-build school in Balivanich and the number of windows which have fallen in, crashing to the floor (fortunately outwith school-time hours)? Also leaking roofs and windows. Are these teething problems or something more fundamental re shoddy workmanship?
People are intentionally misinterpreting my words. I have nothing but the utmost respect for every person from the islands who were involved in the schools project. To a man and a woman, young and old. They, like the off island personnel, should be proud of what they have achieved in a very short period of time. Have mistakes been made? Yes. Could more work have been let locally. Of course. But the focus now should turn to the delivery of education on the islands as far as this project is concerned.
The onus should be on those in charge to build on the success of the schools project to ensure that the next project, and the one after that etc, all improve on the hard work, the legacy and the expertise which is now embedded within the local supply chain. Like FMP perhaps they should consider operating JV’s to bid for larger projects. Be interesting to see who wins out on the Castle because the scale of that job is such that there is unlikely to be a single island based contractor who could manage that contract. UBC would have been the obvious one but they are no longer trading. Could local contractors set aside their differences and operate cooperatively for the benefit of the islands? I don’t see any reason why not. Just takes the will and they could find a way.
No building is ever going to be perfect on day one. Each one is different, each one unique and a one off. They have complex system, millions of components and are subject to the vagaries of human error. So do faults occur? Yes. Are they rectified? Yes. This is no different to any other construction project on any other site across the UK. The continued assertion that because the schools were built by the ‘Irish’ they are somehow badly built does a disservice to everyone involved, half of whom were employed locally. so I’m not criticising islanders, I’m standing up for them.
I’m sorry you consider open honest dialogue to be disgraceful. Some of the comments from others on here simply demonstrate their ignorance, naivety and assumption that they have a monopoly on being right.
Celebrate a success story, don’t try to tear it apart.
Momus @
What success story, to date there have been serious issues with all the schools. The jury is still out as to whether the build quality is fit for purpose.
No one has mentioned the builders being Irish other than you, it is your comdemnation of local builders which is a problem. As far as your comments about local trades people is nothing short of disgraceful.
You celebrate the demise of your local economy and hold it up as being a brilliant piece business acumen. What about those who are out of work because of this mad decision. Obviously you are an” I’am alright Jack”.
Families struggling financially, now having to find money to cover school bus fares and you take great joy in this. It is money leaving our local economy, money we badly need. How you take great pride in this is mind boggling.
Celebrate the demise? Confemn the local contractors and trades people? I have done nothing of the sort, actually quite the reverse. Go back and read what I have actually written.
Almost 40% of the overall contract value has to date has gone directly, or indirectly, into the local supply chain. By any measure that is a success. Almost 50% of pupils are now being taught in brand new facilities which are the equal of any anywhere. By any measure that is a success. All six schools delivered on time and on budget. By any measure that is a success.
We can discuss fitness for purpose but the reality is that these new schools are significantly better than the ones they replace. Ask anyone at Point or Balivanich who have been in their new buildings for over a year now, or any of the parents, pupils and teachers, by far the majority, who are delighted with their new schools.
Quote ” Show me a local contractor who couls cope with a £70m turnover in a two year period and deliver on time to a high quality. They don’t exist and don’t talk about splitting into separate contracts zzzzzzzzz”
Quote “What does exist is local contractors and local tradesmen – including many young guys – who roll up their sleeves and know their limitations.”
It appears you don’t have a clue what you are writing never mind any understanding of business in any capacity and definitely not the building industry. Comprehension is obviously not a strong point of yours.
Why not split the contract up ? Give a proper reason why the contract could not have been split up and staggered.
You should refer to yourself as NUMPTY or the patron saint of Numpties.
You bad mouth local businesses, you bad mouth local skills to the detriment of our local economy
Those remarks are either incomplete or taken out of context.
Name a local contractor that could handle a £70m project over two years. Or £50m even. Or £30m?
Name a local contractor, other than UBC, that could could have built any of the schools from start to finish. As I mentioned previously, even UBC knew their limits and when they partnered with another contractor, they intended to only build one primary school.
I’m not criticising anyone, it’s just that the scale of the project is much larger than most of the local contractors are used to dealing with. Dental Hospital by Laing O’Rourke for example and that was only about £5.5m. So I’m not criticising, I’m simply explaining the constraints which exist.
Yes the schools could have been procured seperately over an extended period but instead of costing £70m they would have cost double the amount.
Keep the personal attacks coming though. I couldn’t care less.
All I’ve done is copied your comments from the same submission. They are not out of context and they are above if you wish to check it. It may not be what you wanted to say, but you said it.
The majority of other local authorities would have kept a contract of this nature local. There was no reason not to break up the contract and stagger it. As for doubling costs it is a reflection on how little you know about business. Where our council truly failed was that it did not stipulate within the contract that 90% of the work should be done by local people.
I know you have been educated to a reasonable level but your discipline lies more with people than business. Your understanding of this situation is somewhat patchy to say the least.
At this stage of the school project there a number of concerns which could be serious. To tell us that the schools project is a success is a bit premature, only time will tell.
Personally, I don’t think there is much to celebrate regardless how well or how badly the schools are built. There are many local people and local businesses struggling to find work. The whole schools project has been badly handled, despite you Labour people telling us different. This PFI contract will become a mill stone round the neck of the people of the Western Isles.
As far as your could not care less statement it is of no interest to me. It is not a thing I like doing, but I still think you are a numpty.
Here Momus re your August 17th at 11.39………. Go F*ck your self.
@ I D M Bite me! It’s called freedom of speech. Don’t agree with it, fine. Getting personal? Youve lost the arguement like a petulant child.
My comments are out of context because they are only being regurgitated IN PART.
If you want any evidence to demonstrate that something could take twice as long and end up costing twice as much just look at the new Harris House contract. That was a rip roaring success using a local company.
Like any community, there is good and bad in everything. These islands are no different and that includes the contracting community.
I have no intention of copying all that anti – local builders rubbish you wrote. I have read it several times and like others interpetation of what you have written is doing the community a disservice. It may not be what you intended to write but don’t blame others if you are not capable of expressing yourself. It is the responsibility of the author to communicate what it is they are trying to say. If what you have said is not what you wanted to say, then the problem lies with you.
The reason that Harris House is costing more is that a new builder won’t take on the responsibility for the UBC without proper recompense. This further demonstrates your lack of understanding of the building industry. The local authorities handling of the UBC situation totally stinks and again sadly reflects your lack of understanding.
Good grief! I can be as opinionated as the next person, but it’s time for some individuals to give some thought to the way they wish to express themselves. Let’s have some perspective here.
My son did say that he found the building very hot, and I hope that this will be addressed over the next few days as all the other glitches are ironed out.
He also said he really liked the interior of the building, that the classrooms are a good size and well laid out, that he found it much easier than he expected to find his way around, and that he really enjoyed his first day. The cashless canteen system worked well for him and we got the text alert when the school was closed. It’s unfortunate there had to be a closure just as the school opened fully but obviously there was a “take no chances” response and to look on the positive side the incident seems to have proved that the evacuation and emergency closure plans appear to work well.
All in all, I think it’s a good start and, as someone else said, there were bound to be teething problems. Let’s see how things progress over the next few weeks.
I am not anti local builders. As I have stated several times, the vlmany of them who were involved in the schools project did a fantastic job.
The arguement being made on thumis forum has been that local builders should have been used on the schools project. Well, a local builder was used on Harris House and look what happened.
Of course an incoming builder will charge a premium to take over a job half done. Any sensible commercial organisation would to cover their position.
As for the local authority I understood they did everything they could to accommodate UBC but had they been sensible at the outset they should have gone to an alternate tenderer. It will end up costing us all a lot more money – money that could and should be getting invested in other projects in the community.
No need to tell me what I do or don’t understand. I understand just fine.
You are fooling many people if you trying to tell us that you are not anti – local builders. As for the local authority they were desperate to prevent UBC going under during the local elections because of the way ignored local builders. If you knew half of what happened to local builders as sub-contractors during the build programme you would be very concerned. Were all the payments made ? Where are all these appreticeships which Mr Campbell told us about ? As far as you understanding is concerned you have no idea. Personally I believe you are capable of understanding but you are a bit naive because of your professional background. If it was not for that I would not have wasted as much time with you.
Contrary to what you think you believe, I am not against the local supply chain.Quite the opposite.
It’s just a fact that above a certain scale of job, and for whatever reason, the main contractors tend to be from off island. Morrison, ROK, Tulloch, Kaing O’Rourke, FMP etc. I don’t think the Castle will be any different.
Most of the apprenticeships were generated by off island contractors, FMP included. The fact that apprentice numbers are low is a wider issue. The numbers have been in decline for a long time, probably 10 years or so. And not just in the construction industry.
You come across as being anti-local builders, anyone reading your comments would agree. As far as what has happened regarding appreticeships you don’t know the half of it. Mr Mac don’t believe half what your party tells you. I have no axe to grind, I do not belong to any party.
How many apprentices did FMP take on? How many would have been created if a local consortium did the build?
What local consortium? There was none? Why didn’t they bid? They could have…..
Sheez – there a lot of agendas floating around here!
Why not give it a rest and allow the buildings and their managers a month or two for ‘shakedown’ ? (Come back later and make comments if they’re still relevant.)
donald the problem is that Momus has talked down local builders which is unfair. As for the new schools, lets see how they do over the winter
The Comhairle will be remembered for failing the local construction industry totally. They allowed construction practices that would not be allowed on other projects. FMP had a free hand to use the quickest and cheapest methods available for the simple reason that there was no one there from the Comhairle to oversee the methods used
You cannot really blame FMP for doing so as they had to deliver a project within budget in a short time, the blame lies squarely with the Comhairle for turning a blind eye to suit themselves
If the project had been subjected to the same scrutiny as other contracts it would not have been possible to meet the deadlines ( this includes Sunday working when deadlines could not be met )
There were lines of vans from construction companies from all over the UK outside the sites and lines of vans parked up outside local companies
Any local hired by these companies had to accept a large cut in wages in comparison to local rates, this is also the case at the Castle site.
Momus is obviously very closely linked to the project to be so vociferous and seemingly well informed.
Sceptical I also heard what you have said, it was not a level playing field. I don’t think Momus was close to the project but is in tow with those who were and has swallowed the propoganda line hook and sinker. Like you I don’t blame FMP, it was those awarded the contract. I also heard that local contractors were not paid in full. If the level of pay was less than local rates it is a disgrace as these islands have been identified as having the lowest average pay in the UK.
The amount of factually incorrect information, which is presented as the truth, is actually quite scary, however I would reiterate that I have not talked down the local builders, except to say they don’t have the necessary scale to take on a project of this size. That’s a historical thing, based on the demonstrable evidence of other larger scale projects which I outlined above. Laing O’Rourke on the Dental Hospital, Tulloch on the ISL, ROK at Arnish etc. And you can pretty much guarantee it will be a mainland contractor on the Castle too I bet.
If the local contractors know and understand they can’t compete at that level for whatever reason, then they should, as many did on the schools project, seek opportunities on various sub-contract packages, of whatever type best suits their particular area of expertise.
Patton won the first phase of the Castle project. Why are they able to be so cost competitive when they have operating costs and overheads which local contractors simply don’t have? And that’s the same across the board. Some of the staff employed on the town hall by UBC were from Inverness when quite clearly the expertise existed elsewhere locally.
Unfortunately it’s a competitive world we live in, and everyone needs to cut their cloth accordingly, particularly in times of recession. If hourly rates were ‘artificially’ high (and yes I appreciate they wouldn’t be perceived as such) in the preceding years due to surplus of work on the islands, then the recession has acted to reduce these across the board, and I don’t mean just on the western isles but across the entire UK and beyond. The islands are not immune to these external forces.
It is unfortunate that companies are suffering, and can feel aggrieved that they are not getting their ‘fair share’ of work, but the Government’s policy of centralising procurement means that fewer and fewer contractors are doing more and more of the work. I don’t think the Comhairle have put any work through their Hub territory yet but in all likelihood they may have to at some point in time. Like the schools project, they aren’t always in control of their own destiny. I understand the funding for the schools was conditional on them being procured in the manner which they were, so what was the alternative? Leave the kids in crumbling schools?
Ultimately, all companies need to make a decision – are they prepared to compete on a commercial basis or not. Only they can decide. On a recent project, the most expensive tender was twice the price of the cheapest, so either something went fundamentally wrong or that company needs to seriously review how it prices work if it wishes to remain viable.
Finally, comments like “they allowed construction practices that would not be allowed on other projects” do a complete disservice to the many thousands of professionals who worked on the schools project, many hundreds of whom are based locally.
Momus,
Your analogy is a little misleading – by stating that the Dential hospital is £5.5 million value and therefore outwith local contractors means to deliver it. You’ll know then, of other contracts that are / were around that figure including the Lanntair, Bridge Centre, Creative Industries centre – all of which were delivered and completed by local contractors.
Your blaming central government for the fact that the Comhairle have automatically looked across the minch to procure anything. This is also misleading, as Orkney Council and one of the Aberdeenshire councils stipulate on their PQQs (Pre Qualification Questionaires) that consultants and suppliers must be sought from within their local vicinity.
The thresholds of value of works is also set by councils. For instance Highland council have a threshold of around £50,000 value before they go onto the procurement portal which you alluded to. £50,000 is a pityful low threshold, but our Comhairles threshold is around £35,000.
Your apparent running down of local skillsmen and women has spilled over to a hint that you think local architects provide a ‘cac service’. You should be aware also that local architects are being frozen out by the comhairle also – the perceval square contract as well as various others was automatically awarded to the councils favourite architects in Glasgow. They also didnt go to the procurement portal to seek fee bids for their reception area etc. This is all public knowledge – look it up on the portal and you will see.
So as we have seen – the comhairle bends the rulebook on procurement to suit their own agendas. Ive no idea what these agendas are – but we are seeing the consequences – even with an apprenticeship course at LCC dramatically dropping in numbers in the wake of the schools contracts.
the pre-cursor to all this was the Sports Centre – which was frozen out to local architects and the contract was given to contractors on the mainland who took over their own subbies and used mainland builders merchants. We resulted with a design which doesnt understand our climate (hence why the render is staining and the countless internal gutters keep leaking).
Again more codswallop from Momus, dodged the whole apprentice thing I see.
Why don you go round and ask every director of every construction company in the islands are they glad that FMP got the nod before a consortium of local contractors and see what they will say, in fact ask them to point out any area of the whole project that they are entirely happy with and see what they will say.
The rates of pay the local builders pay are determined by the CITB and the SBF and others, you will find that all the major ones pay that rate, that is something that FMP dont have to do.
“On a recent project, the most expensive tender was twice the price of the cheapest, so either something went fundamentally wrong or that company needs to seriously review how it prices work if it wishes to remain viable.” Interesting, what project was that then Momus?
Momus I have never read as much tripe as you have put out over the last few days. Clearly you defend our council who are not working for benefit of the people or local economy.
Have you not asked yourself why MFP were paying less than the industry rates? Why they could afford to bring in people from the outside and still make a profit ? Were local builders rate of pay a few years ago higher than that of the SE of England or Edinburgh for that matter ?
You have not given this subject much thought and have totally swallowed the council line. The Welfare State and NHS reforms will have a far greater negative affect on these islands than the majority of the mainland. The little work we get you support giving it away. Personally I cannot follow your logic and hope that you are not as naive as you appear.
One thing that you will not consider is that the overall contract could have been broken up into individual contracts for each school. This would have allowed local contractors to compete far much better.
You go on about cheaper costs, let me remind you that you only get what you pay for. Pay buttons and you get rubbish back.
There are no ‘industry rates’ so lets dispel that notion or provide a link to the sites that show there is a legally binding obligation on any contractor. The only real applicable legislation is the legal minimum wage (hourly rate) although there are figures for apprentices based on the years training complete. Anything else is simply desirable or recommendations. So maybe tradesmen are now earning £10 an hour instead of £12. Or £12 instead of £14. It’s called a competitive commercial environment. If anyone is not happy with the pay on offer, they are free to refuse or look elsewhere. Thats no different to anywhere else in the UK. But why can companies from the mainland, with travel, accommodation and other costs be more cost competitive than local companies? I don’t know the answer.
Thinking people aren’t reading what I’m writing. Local consortium? WHAT local consortium? Which one bid the ISL? Or the Schools? Or the Lews Castle? Name names…
I fully accept that at projects around the value of the Dental Hospital it opens up more opportunities for local contractors, but no-one has been able to say which one(s) could handle something of the scale of the Nicolson at £30m. If there are, name names…..
No-one is denying the island has a fragile economy and more could and should be done, but with only 25,000 or so residents I think it’s naive to assume that all the skills are present in sufficient numbers to deliver every construction project. Every economy is cyclical, with peaks and troughs. What happens now the schools are finished? What will replace the contribution it has made to the economy? Surely no-one is suggesting the Comhairle has a responsibility to ensure workloads levels are maintained?
Dodged apprentice thing? I don’t know the figures but i understand more apprentices were employed by off island contractors than on (in relation to the schools project).Not just first years but part time served ones as well.
How many did Bardons, Neil Mackay, Calmax, Alec Murray, Lewis Builders employ? Or any other company for that matter? I don’t know. Do you?
Momus you again demonstrate your lack of knowledge of the building industry. The pay rate referred to is that set by the various building federations i.e.CTIB / SBF. These are the organisations which protect customers from rogue builders. FMP do not provide customers with that protection.
Had the build programme been staggered, it would have provided much needed work through most of this recession. Any slight increase in costs would have been off set with the benefits to the local economy. Part of an authorities responsibilty is to promote and encourage local economic growth.
We are currently paying the price of Gordon Brown’s banking policies where those least able are the ones taking the brunt of the disaster. Why our Labour minded council has went down the road we will never truly know.
Most certainly Labour have been a disaster at both local and national level.
Momus Are you self employed or an employee.
The relevance to this question is that if self employed you can decide what hourly rate you decide to work for, however if you are an employee does that mean that your employer can turn round to you and pay you a lower rate for the purpose of securing a contract.
Would it be acceptable or legal to pay less to your employees to secure work, I think not.
Companies such as Tullochs , Rock, Morrisons , Robertsons & RJ Macleod have carried out many projects in the Islands and have employed Mainly Locals and many have taken these employees to Mainland contracts when the the contracts have been completed
There were no hundreds or thousands of professionals around when I witnessed concrete being poured into water and peat filled trenches a practice that would not be tolerated on any other site.
@DC – Neither Construction Skills or the SBF can dictate pay levels. As I stated earlier, I think the only thing they (CS) have is recommended minimum hourly rates for apprentices. SBF is a trade body to promote the general interests of its members and as such has no control over pay.
@Sceptical – My point exactly in a round about sort of way. If self employed I can choose, like the owners of all local companies, whether to work for an acceptable level of reward. On the other hand, how many employees do you think, across the entire UK, have been made redundant, or have had to take a 20 or 30% salary sacrifice, in order to ensure that the companies remain viable and not had any choice in the matter?
Depends on what the concrete was for. Was it structural or trench fill for example?
As I also mentioned previously, I don’t think the Council had any choice in how the schools were to be procured as it was a condition of the funding. Had it been a traditional PFI then the on-going costs to the Council would have been considerably higher.
Monus@
I’m sorry but you come across as a died in the wool Tory. If a company belongs to a federation CTIB it has to pay the recommended rate, this is the case for local builders.
The council had numerous choices regarding PFI contract. The form of PFI they chose also had a great deal of flexibility. It took the council three times as long as it did for any other authority across Scotland. I accept there were some difficulties but the council dragged its heels. It took over three years before any work started.
As for the rate of pay, what rubbish. We have the worst industrial legistlation in Western Europe and our economy is struggling more than most. Westminster operates a monetory economy, all prices are negotiable except labour costs, which are dictated by large employers. We are supposed to be one of the wealthiest country’s on the planet but we fail to pay decent wages. The disposable income for 85% of the UK population is getting worse day by day. If we keep driving wages down we will end up on the bread line despite having a job. The reason that wages are kept low is to improve company profits. The reason we have high unemployment is to keep both inflation and employment down. Factual.
As for telling us that the conditions of PFI funding restricted the council’s options, again what rubbish. The council had the sole choice regarding the type of PFI, they just made a meal of it.
There was no need for our council to accept the FMP tender, they had options under the tending policy to reject it. In no way was our council’s hands tied. Don’t think we got the same quality of building for such a low tender. Have you worked out how FMP paid such low wages ? I know the answer, think why the majority of the workers had to return to the Republic of Ireland at certain times. No wonder our orkers couldn’t compete. I’m sorry Monus but you appear to be naive on this subject.
They returned home to see their families?
“If a company….” Are ALL local companies members? Actually there is no legal obligation to pay tradesmen, of whatever kind, a minimum salary beyond the legal minimum wage. Apprentices yes. Im not going to disagree with anything else in your second para.
Having received multiple competitive tenders, one of which included UBC, why would the Council then reject them? Are you assuming it was based on price alone and FMP’s was the lowest?
1. I dare say they saw their families, it has to do with dosh ?
2. If you belong to a group like a federation you have comply with their rules. This included wages. Failure to comply will result in expulsion. The same as your party
3. The FMP tender was the lowest by far. why? Were there other considerations ?
Momus “There are no ‘industry rates’ so lets dispel that notion or provide a link to the sites that show there is a legally binding obligation on any contractor”
Err sorry, since when? SJIB website shows the rates for sparkys, techies etc, if you look at the rates you will notice that the rate for travelling workers is higher as they have to work away from home. (Go figure). Perhaps you should have a look at recent events at the Grangemouth refinery before you wax lyrical about there being no legally binding agreements.
Moms
The concrete that was poured into water filled hole was structural the water into peat was trench fill
@DC I think you will find most workers only got home every second weekend. Thats not unreasonable is it? I dont have a party. Lowest by far…are you sure? If you know to be fact that FMP was the lowest then surely you know if any other criteria were applied?
@Squiggle The SJIB is effectively a union so if a company/individual is not a member then nothing is binding. Not everyone is created equal. That is the problem with ‘unionised’ working conditions as people of equal status earn the same pay irrespective of whether one is below average and the other above average. Like pay grades in Councils, NHS, RSL’s etc.
@Sceptical I guess the concrete displaced the water then. So every island contractor has a perfect record when it comes to working practices, health & safety etc etc?
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/News/Fife/article/24103/fife-council-leader-wants-more-contract-work-to-benefit-local-economy.html?goback=%2Egde_2491620_member_139255602
I’m sure other councils will have similar statistics. 18% is in marked contrast to the 27% spent directly on the schools according to the gazette and that obviously doesn’t take into account the rest of the Comhairle spend that financial year. Harris House, roads etc etc.
Totally agree that more should be done locally however on a ‘national’ basis. No-one can argue that current procurement legislation is dysfunctional.
I mean current procurement legislation IS dysfunctional.
Momus yes, they got home every fortnight. There are other things which match this frequency. You are naive…….. sorry
Not sure of relevance?
@ Momus
So what you seem to be saying is that the local builders had an equal chance as FMP did to price for the schools?
That numerous apprenticeships were created on the schools project, also that local builders should cancel their memberships of CITB and SBF and cut the rate of pay by £5 an hour?
And finally that the schools project could NOT have been done in any other way.
We were talking about FMP pay rate’s, why they were low and people managing to live on them.
Somehow I think this is all a waste of time, you are either taking the p or you are really naive. signing off
@subsidy Yes, the local builders did have an equal chance. The fact that UBC bid would seem to support that suggestion – no? As to why other contractors didn’t work together in some sort of JV I have no idea.
You are suggesting that FMP don’t hold any professional memberships or perhaps they didn’t work closely with Construction Skills? Which isnt the case as far as i am aware. Were they less professional when they insisted that all operatives held a CSCS Health and Safety card when typically the figures on the island were relatively low?
Whether rates of pay were lower or not, the fact is that FMP and some of their sub-contractors had substantial additional costs in travel, accommodation, haulage, food, fuel, council tax, utility bills etc etc. Surely island based contractors without these additional overheads should at least be cost competitive?
@ Momus
“As to why other contractors didn’t work together in some sort of JV I have no idea.” Because it was made clear that no island builder could be made main contractor, either on their own, or as a joint venture. ” But why can companies from the mainland, with travel, accommodation and other costs be more cost competitive than local companies? I don’t know the answer.” the answer is just that, FMP are not members of the SBF and therefore can give their tradesmen £7.50 an hour.
If all you look at is the fact that there are 6 new schools built in 2 years, then it was a success, I, and many others apparently, use a different measure.
Made clear by whom? Why were UBC allowed to bid then? Is that not contradictory?
FMP are effectively a management contractor and don’t employ labour directly but employ sub-contractors instead. So your argument is that the sub-contractors, many of whom were island based, paid reduced hourly rates that were still higher than the legal minimum wage? Is that not the commercial decision that they (the sub-contractors) take?
I think it’s a little unfair to lay the entire blame at FMP’s door in the middle of the worst recession in living memory. I know lots of people who have been made redundant so they have not had the luxury of choosing whether to work for £15 or £10 an hour.
Subsidy Junkie@
You are trying to debate with a bigot who has tunnel vision and a very closed mind. As far as this person is concerned they are in favour of market rate pay without the workers having any say. The type of Tory who is all for low wages, low tax, no worker rights etc. That is until it affects them, then it is all wrong. No vision, no belief in fainess and all for everything being done on the cheap.
Bigot? Sounds like you’re a communist comrade!
MSP launches Living Wage Bill
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-19315443
“@Squiggle The SJIB is effectively a union” That is plain and simple a lie.
From their website:
“What is the SJIB?
The Scottish Joint Industry Board was founded in 1969 by SELECT, formerly the Electrical Contractors’ Association of Scotland, and Unite the Union, formerly AMICUS.
The principal objects of the Board are to regulate relations between employers and employees engaged in the industry in Scotland, to provide benefits for persons engaged in the industry in Scotland, to stimulate and further the progress of the industry, and in addition and in the public interest to regulate and control employment, the level of skill and proficiency, health and safety competence, wages and welfare benefits”
Looks like a union, walks like a union and quacks like a union.
Yes and SELECT are the contractors association (thats the employers just in case you are unsure) and UNITE are the union who represent the employees.
SJIB members are the contractors not the employees. Still look like a union?
Yip. Let me help you. The PRINCIPAL clue is in the line……”The principal objects of the Board are to regulate relations between employers and employees engaged in the industry in Scotland….”
Quack quack lol
Squiggle @ You would be better talking to an old brick than Monus. An out and out Tory who has no idea about business, local government, the building trade or anything relevant.
So, were FMP the cheapest?
Let’s hope that cheapest is still standing in 25 years
Sceptical maybe 25 years is somewhat very very hopeful
Having read, well most of the above, I would direct MOMUS’s attention to the following.
THE CENTRAL POINT
A philosophistry
I am the universe’s Centre,
No subtle sceptics can confound me;
for how can other viewpoints enter,
when all the rest is all around me?
Piet Hein.
Still More GROOKS.
Experts have
their expert fun
ex cathedra
telling one
just how nothing
can be done.
Roses are red
Violets are blue
Some poems rhyme
But this one doesn’t
monus the true blue
sadly hasn’t a clue
watch what’s said
as he’ll call you a red
he loves to be greedy
and takes from the needy
he would like to have won
but sadly he was our fun
Dont be such a DiCk….
Moronic Opinions Mooted Universally Slammed.
Monus thinks he’s a saint
but we all know he aint
he likes to brag about the NIC
sadly everyone knows he’s a dick
he supports the PFI robbers
Ihe’s one of labour’s tax dodgers
a labour tory always through and through
he loves to see poor people on the brew
his views show him to be a major nutter
the type to keep our kids in the gutter
some are equal but many are not
momus is desperate to keep the lot
Glad to have provided some commentary that dispels the myth that everyone on here knows what they they are talking about. Or at least they think they know what they are talking about. Thats patently not the case. In reality, as I said at the outset, mostly it’s a load of utter rubbish and uninformed commentary that’s just white noise at the end of the day.
You can all go back to giving each other ‘reach arounds’ now
Indeed you have surprised me with just how blinkered and way off the mark some people can be, I never thought it possible.
Now you can go back waiting for your long stand.
One should not egg on the likes of Momus, but why not!
A DIPLOMATIC COMPROMISE
A fellow I know
can get mountains to move
and all opposition
appeases:
he preaches what God
cannot but approve,
and does
what the Devil he pleases.
Apologies, I left a word out.
Line 6 should read, “cannot help but approve”
It is people like Momus that perpetuate the myth that he/she comments on