I have had a letter asking me if there would be support for reporting the office-bearers of the Free Church (Continuing) for hate crime after its sectarian attack on the local Roman Catholic priest. I’m not sure.
One thing is sure. There is no way that the Scottish Government can stop sectarian attacks while these deluded people are allowed to stain the character of Scotland with this sham-Christianity.
The proper Free Church “noted” the report and did not reject it. How sad is that? That will probably mean they will lose another family I know from their membership.
Hebrides News
Ecumenical service controversy 22/12/11
By Bill Lucas
The presbytery of the Free Church of Scotland (Continuing) has criticised a Lewis Free Church minister for taking part in what has been described as an “ecumenical service” along with an Roman Catholic priest.
The Continuing has written to the Western Isles Free Church Presbytery expressing their ‘sadness and concern’ about the involvement of the Rev James Maciver of Knock Free Church.
When the issue was raised at the November meeting of the FC Presbytery, Mr Maciver, who is Moderator of the Free Church General Assembly, explained that he had agreed to take part in the service which was to be broadcast on Christmas Eve. He had suggested to BBC Alba that it should not be advertised as an “ecumenical service.”
There were to be a number of items by local groups and choirs. He had been asked to give a four minute talk, the priest was to read a prayer, and the Church of Scotland minister would be reading from the Scripture. It was recorded in Martin’s Memorial Church of Scotland in Stornoway on December 3.
Mr Maciver told the Presbytery that he did not regard it as compromising his theological position or that of the church. It was an opportunity to present the real meaning of Christmas although only in a small time frame of 4 to 5 minutes. He could bring the message to thousands of Roman Catholics and others. He had not been asked to conduct a service.
The Free Church (Continuing) said it was concerned at Rev Maciver’s participation in the event and noted he was involved “in a similar service in October at the opening of this year’s Mod.
‘We respectfully point out that such joint acts of worship, in which the unresolved controversy between Protestantism and Rome concerning the gospel is laid aside and a servant of Antichrist is treated as though he were a fellow-servant of Christ, are an insult to the memory of our reformers and likely to be a stumbling-block and a snare to many who need to be given clear biblical guidance in these days of spiritual confusion and compromise.
‘We urge you for the sake of the Lord’s cause to take appropriate action regarding these events and ensure that they are not repeated.”
The FC Presbytery noted the letter.
No. No case to answer.
As far as my understanding of sectarian hate crime legislation goes, I don’t think anything has been said which would support a prosecution. There have been no threats made, nor incitement to violence against anyone because of their religious beliefs.
This is still a highly offensive statement for the FCC to make and I think at the very least an apology for the remarks should be made to all concerned.
I have no religious beliefs whatsoever, but surely an event which brings together different faiths in the spirit of unity and co-operation should be applauded, not condemned???
“The FC Presbytery noted the letter.”
A sensible response I would say, sometimes its better to turn the other cheek.
If the comments of this awful group (I would never cal them a church) are not illegal then the sectarian agenda of the government is absolutely worthless. It is right though to discuss them in public so that people can make up their own mind. Such comments are not made by true Christians but by dangerous fanatics who have lost all humanity in their desperation to prove that they are right and the rest of the world is wrong. Very very sad. If this is not proof that you should regard everyone in the Free Church Continuing as potential hateful lunatics then I dont know what is. I worry for innocent children who are forced to grow up in its pews. They will probably be damaged for life listening to that message.
PS – - Despite my name I am not a Free Church minister.
I should add, I hope they have torn up the letter and filed it in the proper place after noting it.
If it wasn’t so sad I might just laugh it off – Not in the name of Christ.
Dreadful comments by dreadful people who are behaving in a manner which could never be considered christian. The hate and venom towards a fellow christian should be condemned by all. If it is not criminal it should be.
The west of Scotland sectarianism has nothing on this.
How wonderful that people of ALL faiths came together for this service.
Those letter writers are very sad, narrow people .
Funny THEY think THEY are right and the rest of us are wrong !!!!!
I believe Mrs basmati’s comment is totally out of order and disgusting! How dare she state something like that! You crass coward!
As an occasionak attender at is services , I do not believe Revrend James Maciver suscribes to tis kiind of stuff . I have never heard him so anyway .
WARNING – Some of our readers seem intent on posting racist and sectarian comments today. I have had to remove some.
I would remind them that I will fully co-operate with the authorities who may want to trace them so please take this as a friendly warning.
Iain X why has the dreadful entry by Pilau Rice not been removed.
I meant anti-sectarian agenda ….. not sectarian agenda. Sorry.
Considering that the Free Church used to call the Catholics “The harlots of Rome”, I suppose you could say that calling them the “Antichrist” is an improvement. In reality though, I find the whole matter quite hilarious, especially when you consider that, in reality, it involves one lot arguing that their imaginary friend is more real than the imaginary friend of the other lot.
Laughter is the best approach to such nonsense, not threats of resorting to law.
The word “sad” has rightly appeared in many of the comments. The first comment by “Iain not X” sums up how I believe this should be treated.
You know what…” In my Fathers house are many mansions”..go figure
Get a grip you lot, just shows your ignorance of Protestantism!
Roman Catholism and Protestantism are at odds – try studying it you duffers before commenting.
Old Duffer, religion is ‘narrow’, no matter which you choose, lol.
We may get over 300 comments out of this debate, has the potential of sinking our New Year bash!
advocacy – many of us would be happier with fewer comments if you would just go back to bed. I am very happy with my ignorance of a hateful religion that always claims to follow the example of Christ but in reality acts very differently.
That sort of utterance is best treated with the contempt of silence. It gives the island and the Christian religion a bad name.
Anne, I’m sure you would…….!
“I am very happy with my ignorance of a hateful religion that always claims to follow the example of Christ but in reality acts very differently.”
You talk such utter nonsense, but I’m willing to listen to your explanation about the above statement.
Observer, you did well with your silence………..
Clearly ignorant about Christian religion too……….
Perhaps Advocacy can enlighten us how he thinks the FCC is following the example of Jesus Christ by condemning someone from another church. We are all waiting.
Here’s a quote from the letter, “The Continuing has written to the Western Isles Free Church Presbytery expressing their ‘sadness and concern’ about the involvement of the Rev James Maciver of Knock Free Church.”
Your question, “Perhaps Advocacy can enlighten us how he thinks the FCC is following the example of Jesus Christ by condemning someone from another church.”
Where is the condemnation, that’s very strong word to use?
You are another ignorant of what you’re talking about – the bible is full of condemnation! You really do need to know more about the religion you’re commenting on before doing so. The Protestant faith talks as much about Hell and condemnation as it does Love, at least the unwatered version still breached on these shores.
If you wish to disagree with it, it’s your right and no one will deny you that – but before commenting on what Christ teaches and expects from his ‘Believers’ ( not historic belief but belief through faith, there’s a fundamental difference many today are ignorant of as it seems you are) then at least know what you’re talking about. This faith your are all so fast to attack at any opportunity for expressing opinion, does no harm to anyone – it merely expresses what it believes to be right, you would all do well to remember that before branding it in such extreme terms.
SIGH
I lived for many years in the shadow of West of Scotland sectarianism, of the sort that generally rears its head in the wake of an old firm football match. Any situation that involves religious intolerance and bitter feuding between denominations is ugly to witness and damaging to the communities involved. I cannot help but wonder, if all of the time and the money and the energy and the emotion, that is directed by professing Christian denominations towards hatred of one another, were to be diverted to promoting the work of the Lord, what great things could be achieved in His Name?
I thought i would give this debate a miss,however after reading advocacy’s post i can not but agree with the only sensible contribution so far
Old Duffer, knocked out in the first round………..
Reading the comments so far on this issue shows a great ignorance on the part of many commentators as to the history of the Christian religion and the reformation.
Any believer who adheres to the Westminster confession of faith as their subordinate standard, (includes most Presbyterian and reformed churches in the UK) claims that the pope of Rome is the Antichrist as revealed in the bible. The Westminster confession chapter 25 section 6 states;
“VI. There is no other head of the church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God.” Read it on the Free Church website here – > http://www.freechurch.org/index.php/scotland/resources-article/the_westminster_confession_of_faith/
A good biblical backup for this view can be found here – > http://www.nesherchristianresources.org/JBS/JBSaudio/jbsAM_1997.mp3
I suggest that you all listen to it, to hear the reason behind what was said in this letter so you are not commenting from a position of ignorance.
Old Duffer. Im with you all of the way.
Agnostic Atheist, quote: “Im with you all of the way.”
If only you realised the full implications of that statement………………. but the way is broad so there’s plenty space for anyone else heading the same way – easy direction to go, you’ll plenty company too, you won’t be lonely, that is of course until you get there…….!
An “understanding of Protestantism” Advocacy? That would be quite something as it has been in a state of constant flux since the Reformation 500 years ago, and the only ones understanding it are those making it up as they go along.
That would be an ecumenical matter.
We’re in exalted company on this blog as we now have comments from a Pope; albeit a dead one. Also, the same one that refused to condemn the Nazis, signed a treaty with them, and kept on with the papal infallibilty nonsense. He definitely excelled in making it up as he went along.
A quiet note from John MacLeod the journalist, Iain X, to mark my puzzlement at this posting. For one thing, no report by Bill Lucas – or anyone else – on this matter has appeared on the Hebrides News website. For another, no one locally pays much heed to the ravings of the ‘Free Church of Scotland Continuing’, a sad little bunch of renegades from church discipline and of no local standing, who remain in unlawful occupation of several church buildings in the Western Isles.
But my real puzzlement is this. On Monday last week, in all my pomp as an adherent of the Free Presbyterian Church, I approached Fr Roddy Johnston asking if we might together organise and conduct a memorial service at Our Holy Redeemer Roman Catholic Church for wee Liam Aitchison, the lad from South Uist and of the Roman Catholic faith murdered a month ago on this Protestant island. (There was an obvious and desperate pastoral need; Liam had many friends on Lewis, most of them young, most of them poor, most of them marginalised, few in a position to hope to attend his eventual funeral in South Uist and desperately needing closure and catharsis and, as one young girl put it, ‘something to go to’ before this weekend, a season of peace and togetherness on Planet Earth.)
He gladly assented. We worked on the Order of Service. I personally chose the items of praise. On the day, Tuesday 20th, I donned my best garb and even my frock-coat – determined, not least after some drek printed about the child in the worst newspapers, to send him off like Churchill. I stood at the door as beadle, directed knot upon clump of local teens to their seats, handed out the Order of Service. I precented the first singing and I personally delivered the homily. A young Free Church communicant gave the first Scripture reading. Fr Roddy and I gave joint media interviews and even posed for a photograph.
In the event, it was standing-room only. Young people of every faith and none jammed in, to say nothing of local councillors, our MSP, several officebearers of local churches, and most local journalists. At least half the congregation were under twenty. Be it noted that Father Roddy’s bearing and light human touch of everything were masterly.
We sang, we prayed, we wept, we laughed… we worshipped God, as one community, one people, and one Western Isles; and we gathered as one to the honour of little Liam Aitchison.
Two questions, Iain X.
First – even taking as read your hatred for our island religion and your desire to do it down at every turn (to say nothing, a far lesser matter, of your near-clinical hatred of myself) – why has no mention of this service appeared on your blog?
Second – why were you not there?
If only in honour of a wean from South Uist dumped in a local shack, his head smashed in like an egg: out of which tragedy you have made no mean freelance cash?
Mr John Macleod I applaud you and I agree with you..I was there ( memorial service).People of ALL faiths and none came together in one heart.
Those youngsters needed somewhere to go. , and they got it. Thankyou. Father Roddy handled it with humility and with gentle kindness.
Ah Guga. His Holiness was merely referring to the various factions within the broad term “Protestantism” that do/do not subscribe to me being the Son of Perdition and Antichrist.
On another matter His Holiness can see that you got the book “Hitlers Pope” as a Christmas present last year.
Sadly, history is not kind to his Holiness. It never is to us our flock.
I wish you a Happy Feast of The Nativity of Our Lord Jesus.
It is always refreshing to hear from Mr John Macleod. I did not mention the memorial service because I knew I had a long-standing appointment for that day and time at an island school and would therefore not be able to attend. I made Liam’s dad aware of that and I personally approved of the inter-faith nature of the service. Well done to Mr Macleod.
Newspaper people, by definition, make a living from good news and bad. As the person who disgraced himself, and Scotland, so comprehensively by mocking the deaths of the little girls Holly Well and Jessica Chapman for a barrowload of cash, I’m surprised Mr Macleod chose to raise the subject in his swipe at me.
If Mr Macleod has changed the views he set forth then, he should tell us how that happened and why. One thing which has not changed since he got booted off The Herald is his paranoia. He regards anyone who challenges his now-pliable views head-on as someone nursing a deep-seated hatred of himself.
Nope, I don’t hate Mr Macleod even for trying to weasel his way into the Labour Party after being banned for life by the SNP. Mind you, my distaste for the headless chickens at local Labour for disregarding that once-proud party’s commitment to equality and giving houseroom to him, and others who think like him, is certainly going that way.
To the lady who rang me, I can understand why you believe Mr John Macleod is a liar but I prefer to think he is mistaken. Of course, he is wrong to say the report I mentioned is not on Hebrides News. It appears under the heading “Ecumenical service controversy”. He has shown himself up again – but it was early when he wrote it.
Just let it go. Whatever his undoubted talents, it was never meticulous fact-checking that Mr Macleod was famous for. Just ask the members of a certain Clydebank historical society who spit fire at the very mention of an allegedly self-researched recent book of his.
While we should all know by now of John Macleod’s predisposition to boast, this one takes the biscuit. In the light of his history with regard to the deaths of minors, as highlighted by Mr. X, he is the most inappropriate person in the Hebrides for the role he had last Tuesday. However, inbred arrogance won the day.
Anne, would you care to explain what you mean……………..
I wish i had’nt bothered saving christianity from Turks ; (
Rather than argue amongst ourselves maybe this is an appropriate time to sit back and reflect,it’s christmas,hope you all have a great time with your loved ones and may we all remember there are many worse off than us,as Dave Allen used to say,may your god go with you.merry christmas
Well said Murdo!
Agree Murdo
I wish ALL who read and post here a very Happy Christmas
Ah, the welcome(?) return of John Macleod! Where has he been? What has he been doing? Has he mellowed? Based on his comments above, at first I was fooled, thinking he’d gone all passionate, understanding and wise, speaking words of wisdom, reconcilliation and even, dare I say it, common sense! Alas, he couldn’t resist using a sad and unfortunate incident as a vehicle to employ his traditional tactic of sniping at anyone who dares disagree with him. Yet again he shows himself up for what he really is… a pompous egotistical hypocrite. You were doing so well by abstaining from these places. Your silence was a welcome one. I thought your return might have seen you a changed man (for the better) and for a minute there you had me fooled. How wrong I was. You are still as bitter, twisted and vile as ever. Hang your head in shame John Boy.
http://www.hebrides-news.com/free-presbyterian-denounce-ecumenical-services-281211.html
Reading the above is any body on this blog left with a smidgeon of egg on their face.
Having already read the FP statement the only thing that I can say is each to their own. Most christian church services are derived from a variation of the old RC mass. If the FP’s believe that their’s is totally different, it is not for me to argue. As easter is fundemental to all christian belief and is celebrated at a time which is relevant to the actual time of Christ’s death and rising, I find it strange that people refer to it as being of pagan origin. If the FP’s believe that they do not think it is right to worship in the presence of an RC priest that is their business but they do not have the right to dictate to other christian denominations.
I’d like to know what the distribution of members across the hebrides is for all the different denominations. Anybody know what percentage of the population are “attached” to each one and wht percentage are of other religions or none? It would be interesting to see what the breakdown is, given how loudly we hear some groups compared to others.
I’m a little confused here so could you please enlighten me?
“This faith your are all so fast to attack at any opportunity for expressing opinion, does no harm to anyone”
I thought many wars were waged in God’s name?
“It merely expresses what it believes to be right, you would all do well to remember that before branding it in such extreme terms.”
The key word here i think is “believes” and the most extreme term I have seen here yet is “Antichrist”. The man used it to describe a fellow servant of God.
I eagerly await your reply
Dear Fellow Bloggers,
I am a retired Free Church Lay- Missionary, and the arguments on this issue
does not show any understanding of Church History as a whole. The Eastern
Orthodox Church, later the Latins or Roman Catholics share the same Tradtion. Protestantism did not come in to around the 1500s with Martin Luther,who was Roman Catholic, by the way.
The early Christian Church brought the Gospels to these isles came by way of the Orthodox Church from Egypt and Gaza.
Instead of indulging in the old hat and usual bit of demoninational bashing,
judging and condemning one another, be aware of this: nothing stops the Holy Spirit from working with you quicker than judging and condemning one another.
If as a denomination, that denomination is judging and condemning, realize one is following the ways of men and the Holy Spirit does not go with you.
Do stop this nit-pickking and judging, and go take a look at Christianity over 1400 years before Protestantism came into existence. May the Lord open your eyes to the heights and the depths and the width of the heritage that is yours, Christian, learn from it, live it and may God bless you.
I don’t believe the Free Church Comtinuing is guilty of anything other than expressing free speech! Hate Crime legislation is a cover for turning the Nation into an outpost of Nazism. We fought Nazis for free speech, so why is this newspaper trying to condem anyone who practices it?
With regard to the FCC postion that the Pope is the AntiChrist, they have that doctrine wrong. The Antichrist in the bible will be so convincing that he will fool Israel and the Church into believing he is the real Messiah! Clearly the Pope doesnt fit this characteristic as no-one believes he is actually Jesus!