More than 10 years ago, I asked the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland if it was true that they preached from the pulpit that no one should celebrate Christmas. I knew it was the case because my informant was an appalled attender who had decided to quit after an attempt to brainwash his children.
The FPs waffled for days and claimed there was no spokesman available, there was no formal order to ignore Christmas, there was no ban on people doing what they wanted and there was no reason why they should tell anyone what they thought. How things have changed.
As membership of these sects dwindles in our latter-day age of enlightenment, the leaders get desperate as they lose their power to petrify. This week they are not just confirming how much they hate Christmas to anyone who will listen but also gaily flinging statements around to the media.
The Outer Isles Presbytery said: “There is no authority in the Word of God for the religious observance of Christmas or any other so-called holy day. In the main, these celebrations are worldly and contrary to the religion of the Bible, being derived from paganism and superstition.”
That first sentence? So no one should observe the Sabbath. Is that what they’re saying? Who knows? Who cares?
How ironic that they claim Christmas, even it is commercialised and overblown, is based on superstition when the FPs’ own spiteful interpretation of scripture and outright sectarianism is exactly that and completely designed to enslave their deluded followers.
Their carefully-timed presbytery statement – which you can read with all its awful bile and stark hatred on Hebrides News – was all an excuse to attack Roman Catholics, of course. That is the speciality of a nasty little self-righteous bunch which pays no heed whatsoever to Jesus Christ’s solicitation to love and forgive.
At this time of reflection, we should all pray that FPs are forgiven for their membership of such a shameful institution which is so patently based on hate and fear and which can, as families who have tragically lost dear ones to the fanaticism of the sect know only too well, have vast appeal for those who are psychologically vulnerable and mentally unstable.
At this rate, if they should ever decide to hold another ‘ecumenical’ service in Stornoway, there’s a possibility the various factions might resort to fisticuffs – just like their deluded idiot cousins did the other day in Bethlehem. Mind you, it’d do wonders for church attendance – people would be willing to pay to see that take place. Maybe BBC Alba could televise the event on a ‘Pay per Pew’ basis to further increase revenue. The Catholics probably have the marketing edge at the moment though, what with all that ‘anti-christ’ imagery they can tap into. I can picture the life-like dolls on the shelves of Wee W and Aladdin’s Cave as I type. Bring on the Anti-Christ vs the Man in Black. Twelve three minute rounds. The winner gets two paragraphs on Hebrides News and a letter containing one biblical quotation of their choice in the Stornoway Gazette.
Maybe this FP mob have a new PR person who has advised they need to go ‘fundamental extremist’ in order to gain column inches and therefore reach out to the large number of people presently disillusioned with capitalism and the modern world. Perhaps they’re going down the route of the Ultra Orthodox nutters currently parading the streets of Israel, hurling abuse at nine year old girls for wearing ‘inappropriate’ clothing. Wouldn’t you love to see FP ministers patrolling the narrows this Saturday night (new year’s eve), trying to persuade the female youth of Stornoway to don ankle length skirts and hurry home before midnight in preparation for the Sabbath?
Ever heard the disgusting drivel they feed our children at Sunday School? These people shouldn’t be permitted to spout their poisonous propaganda to our youth.
Hopefully their recent outpourings to the press and media will be seen for what they are: the desperate bleatings of a deluded minority. Unfortunately they also have the effect of making the Western Isles a laughing stock to the outside world. The theological nonsense they base their recent statements on has nothing to do with the ‘Word of God’ (if such a thing exists!). They’re getting their knickers in a twist over a bunch of medieval scribblings cobbled together by a group of uneducated idiots who were afraid of the dark and thought the sun revolved around the earth. A great basis for living in today’s world, eh?
Need I point out that John Macleod who is a leading light at the Western Isles Labour Party and the Daily Mail is also a member of this anti Christmas and anti Roman Catholic church known as the F.P.’s.
What does the Labour Party say about having such a prominent member from a church who has publicly come out as anti Catholic . When they come and ask for our votes in Uist and Barra Will the Labour canvassers call us followers of the antichrist on the doorsteps. I assume John Macleod will because he has chosen that church.
Iain, will you ask Matt Bruce and Joanne lamont. A lot of us Catholics in the Uist and Barra really want to know what they have to say. Without a good explanation some of here may not vote for them ever again..
The Labour Party in Scotland don’t know who they are or who they represent other than their masters in London. That is why people like John Macleod prosper in a party which has more internal issues than externally. The question. The point raised by Iain Mackinnon is very valid, how could a labour bigot represent the catholics. Having said that, the last two labour yes men represented the parliaments to us and never listen to us despite having a valid issue. That was when I stopped voting labour. I agree the question needs to be asked.
You can paint a wall in many different colours and tones ,strip off the decor and it’s still the same old wall underneath
Re – Iain MacKinnon
A couple of simple questions.
How many years was John Macleod a ‘prominent member of the Western Isles SNP’?
Did you express your opinion of him and his views in any public forum at that time?
What do you think of a certain prominent member of the Church of The Nazarene and his extensive funding of the SNP at national level?
To quote your friend Jason, in order to prove you are not an absolute hypocrite, these questions ‘need to be asked’.
The FP church are entirely predictable in their condemnation of Christmas and all its enjoyments religious and otherwise but what currently surprises me about them locally is that so far they have not publicly chastised their
most well known adherent – our journalist friend John Macleod – for not only organising, but also attending and taking a prominent part in the memorial service for Liam Aitcheson alongside a Catholic priest in (horror!) an actual chapel of all places. If memory serves a more prominent member than John was thrown out of the church for attending a colleague’s funeral a few years back. Maybe they are mellowing. Or have I missed something?
Rich Tea I have no intention of getting into any political rants with you as I’m not all that politically motivated. As a pro labour person are you that ashamed that you cannot use your own name ? Why are you taking issue when the question that should be asked is what does labour need to do to get people like me to vote labour again ? You assume that I’m pro SNP despite the fact that there is no evidence to support this. As far as being friends with Iain Mackinnon ,we don’t know each other .
Re – Jason
I must apologise to you and totally agree that the question you ask above is totally justified and needs to be asked.
However, there is little so tiresome as the way that SNP supporters are using a single person’s current role in the local Labour Party as a stick to beat their opponents.
This is despite the fact that:
1 John Macleod must be the most unusual and divisive member of the Labour Party in Scotland and is hardly typical of that party.
2 John Macleod was a member of the Western Isles SNP for yonks – something which they appear to have completely and utterly forgotten.
3 The SNP have received a great deal of funding from the bigot and homophobe Brian Souter for many years. No businessman on the planet does that unless he gains influence in return.
4 The reason I am anonymous is because of the irrational nature of so many SNP supporters. Far from being ashamed, I fear their general level of hysteria. You can even see it on this website… They are using one sad and misguided person who was a member of their party for years to blacken the name of others.
You’d think people who live in glasshouses would be wise enough to stop throwing stones.
Rich Tea I’m afraid that you are allowing yourself to become obsessed with the SNP. It is not what the SNP will do which will change Labour’s future, it is what Labour does which will bring about a change in fortune. I don’t know John Macleod but he appears to have a poor reputation when it comes to certain groups within society. Maybe it’s deserved, maybe not, I don’t really know. The reputation of the local Labour Party appears to be somewhat tarnished prior to John Macleod’s arrival on the scene. Again I don’t know if it’s deserved or not but most certainly the party’s image is not very good. You say that the SNP and supporters are the ones persecuting John Macleod and the local Labour Party, I don’t think that this is true. The people I see taking issue with this is people like myself who believe in the respect of an individual regardless of the church they attend or their sexual orientation. Iain X appears to have more leaning towards Labour than SNP along with a belief in fairness.
The treatment of Angus Macneil by Labour and their supporters did more damage to Labour than him. It helped change my voting intention.
From my point of view the Labour Party in Scotland has a mountain to climb and don’t have any idea on where to start. You and your colleagues would do better to build on your party’s positives than taking a negative stance. Whether you see this as constructive depends upon you.
Re – Jason
Before coming to your conclusions about ‘the treatment of Angus Macneil by Labour’, did you find out if any of their criticisms of him and his work as an MP were correct?
Or was it just an emotional reaction?
I think it would be told.
Mr Maciver,
I stumbled across your blog for the first time today.
I have attended FP services for over 20 years.
With regard to paragraphs 1 and 2, I have heard the celebration of Christmas being condemned at least once or twice every December by every FP minister I can think of for as long as I can remember. There is also an article under the “What we believe” section of the FP website entitled “Should Christians Celebrate Christmas?”.
In paragraph 6 you state that it is “ironic” for the FPs to claim that the celebration of Christmas is based on superstition when their “own spiteful interpretation of scripture” is “exactly that” ie superstitous. I feel I would grasp the irony of the situation better if you could set out the non-spiteful biblical case for the celebration of Chrismas? I apologise for not being able to see the irony already – but then again I am just a “deluded follower” who has slept through “our latter-day age of enlightenment”.
In the penultimate paragraph you state that the presbytery statement was “all an excuse to attack Roman Catholics”. Yes, it does condemn Protestants who “connive at or encourage Roman Catholic practices” and therefore I think it is a reasonable implication to say that the article condemns Roman Catholic practices themselves but I think you have no warrant to say that the article is an attack on Roman Catholics.
Surely attacking Roman Catholic ideology is very different from attacking Roman Catholics. Otherwise, one might suggest that your criticism of Free Presbyterian doctrine regarding Christmas is an attack on Free Presbyterians, which it is blatantly is not. You are merely expressing your disagreement with the Free Presbyterian interpretation of the Bible’s teaching regarding Christmas while the Free Presbyterian’s are expressing their disagreement with the Roman Catholic interpretation of the Bible’s teaching.
Rich Tea I’m sorry but the comments made about Macneil were totally unwarranted and spiteful. It did more to damage Labour’s image than Macneil’s and I know others felt the same. In comparison to Calum Macdonald, Angus Macneil is doing a far better job. The last four campaigns saw a negative outlook from Labour while the SNP offered policies which have improved peoples lives. The SNP are upbeat about Scotland while Labour look tired. That’s my opinion, you might not agree being a Labour person. It is not my intention to offend you, I’m just offering what I see and hear.
I find Puzzled Newcomer’s views quite extreme. I fail to understand why one christian denomination can be so negative towards another. The thing is that the FP church is a derivitive of the church of Rome. They may change a few things but the FP service is not all that different from the type of service offered by the RC before the reformation.
There is not much difference in the bigoted views of either the FP, FC or FCC but I was under the impression John MacLeod is a FC not a FP or am I mistaken? If he is as I suspect a FC then he is being melignied in this argument.
Re – Jason…
Can you please provide evidence for at least some of your statements? All you’re doing is making highly questionable assertions. It’s not a very honest or intelligent way of arguing.
I’ll help by providing you with a very easy question, one that might help you learn the basis of logical argument.
Where would any decent hard-working MP be when the jobs of the largest private employer in his constituency were threatened?
A) In his constituency, supporting the employees?
B) In Westminster arguing on their behalf?
C) In Washington, USA on a junket?
Come on ….
Rich Tea………….Sorry, end of discussion. I’m not here to defend the SNP or more importantly my reasons for not voting Labour. I stated this right at the start. Now if you have a problem with this, then tough. It appears that Labour wish to continue with their head buried in the sand, that’s fine by me. You asked me if I thought the criticsm of Macneil was justified and I have said no and you lose the plot. There is no point in continuing as you have a personal issue with the man. You can’t bully people into voting labour.
I bet What-would-John-Macleod-do is loving this. DO stop making a fuss of him.
For the record, though nominally Catholic (now a non-believer, but haven’t replaced my RCness with any other initials so I guess I’m still sort of a very bad RC), I’ve found my FP cousins and neighbours are all extremely friendly, generous, open and tolerant (though whatever about me needs tolerating, I doubt it’s my religious belief or practice) – and I fully endorse their view of Christmas, pagan-feast-made-appalling that it is. I do just draw the line at anyone (ie, their management) condemning the lawful practice of others – but by that token I can’t condemn theirs, except their condemnation of ours… etc etc, the eternal dilemma of the woolly liberal.
Am I the only person totally bewildered by the ceaseless religious arguments that pop up here or in the Gazette and on various news websites? I’m an educated person and I’ve tried really hard to understand, but all the assertions that the FC are right because……..no the FCC have it right since………ah but the bible supports the FP by saying…….and the RC are the anti, yet every one I’ve ever met is pro – christ…..and then there’s the C of S and the Sallies and the Baptists and the APC and New Wine and the Espiscopals and the RPC and the JW and the GH, in no particular order, and that lot’s only in Stornoway…..and I’m sure I’ve missed someone out but I promise I mean no offence. Gosh, wouldn’t life be sweeter if they could all get along with their neighbours, you know, just like Christians!
Confused – You have it pretty much as Jesus stated – unequivocally :
Matthew 22:37-39
New International Version (NIV)
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
Confused..Mate I am with you..I dont understand why there is so much hate.
I am not ashamed to own my Lord..My view differs much from the FPC..the FC and the continuing of ANY of them..sigh
All this is MAN MADE..I dont see Gods hand in any of it..sigh.
Are we not all just human?..I am NOT a member in any church, just a humble church goer( when I can go, due to work commitments)
My Mother always said ” sitting in church doesnt make you a christian,,sitting in a henhouse..doesnt make you lay an egg”
An what the heck does Labour or SNP have do with this blog???
Oh, heck, I am glad I am on the way out !!!
Re – Jason
Great when you accuse others of losing the plot instead of arguing logically and clearly.
I know that any sane, sensible person in Uist should have an issue with MacNeil. He’s the man who flew away to Washington on a junket when they were trying to save their jobs.
It’s also clear that you know exactly what he did. I didn’t even say who that MP was earlier.
Paul – I am told by many friends on Lewis tha Mister Macleod left the Free Church many moons ago and is now with the anti catholic lot who are also against Xmas. Some of us are concerned that the Labour party people have not even bothered to answer the questions by the blogger on this site. For the record asgerd, I also know 2 or 3 free presbyterians quite well and they seem like fine people but when their church leaders start the anti Catholic rants then I do wonder what these people are all really like and why they go to a church that preaches this kind of stuff. And Old Duffer while I sympathise in your confusion politics are always intertwined with religion everywhere you go in the world but I loved your quote ” sitting in church doesnt make you a christian, sitting in a henhouse doesnt make you lay an egg ”. Iain
Rich Tea…. Okay you win, the world turns in the wrong direction, the world is flat, the labour policies are the best, the lack of labour policies are a myth, macneil is a scoundrel despite it was a labour policy to close the range, all the people who didn’t vote labour got it wrong, it is labour rightful place to get our votes without doing anything. On behalf of everyone I’m sorry and it won’t happen again.
P/S You have convinced me the labour party is in a worse state than it was when I stopped voting labour. No one can say anything without offending labour. These are my last words to you.
Re – Jason
All Labour did was to announce a review of the future of the Base. It was the task of the MP, Council etc to put up a case for the retention, something that MacNeil – intent on his global travels – failed to do…
But, of course, when the world turns tartan, all normality will be suspended and Governments will not have to make sure they get value for the public’s cash. Our representatives will also not have to do any work either. They can jet off to Washington on junkets whenever (and with whoever) they like.
All will be well in the world of Jason and the Argonauts, that airy-fairy never-neverland …
Why are the FP’s so anti RC? It is worse here than what you find in Glasgow. Is the same reason why Rich Tea and his party friends are so bitter towards our MP Angus Macneil ? This form of irrational hatred belongs in the past as life is difficult enough. Most certainly Rich Tea has done nothing to enhance the image of his party which is already has problems.
I see this topic has taken a twist and it appears that the implications don’t do any favours for the Labour Party. Let me say I don’t belong to any political party and I vote for the party I see fit at the time. I’m fed up with Labour going on about Angus Brendan Macneil and the lack of opposition to Alec Salmond.
I’m also fed up with the single minded religious bigots trying to dictate to the rest of us. It is time for them to take a back seat and worry about themselves
and leave the rest of us to get on with our lives.
As far as the rocket range goes, it was the Labour Government and Qinetiq
who wanted to transfer the work to Wales. As far as I’m aware Mr Macneil was not a junior minister within the MoD and had no knowledge of the situation.
Rich Tea, Spout as much Labour rubish as you want as all your’e doing is to convince me that voting Labour is not an option.
Re – Charlie, Graham
Obvious why I stay anonymous, isn’t it? You guys hunt in packs and come out every full moon.
However, check your facts. Government Departments and Defence Ministers in every nation continually review their spending. Among the facilities reviewed at that time was the Range. Unlike most constituency MPs, MacNeil made no serious or detailed objections to its closure. That’s a matter of record.
He was also in Washington on a junket when the decision was announced.
Such hard work and loyalty, eh?
The trouble with Leodhasachs is that these things don’t really matter to them. As long as they’re all right, the rest can go to hell!
Rich Tea you definitely have a serious inferiority complex if you think I’m ganging up with others to get you. Why you think that people are lying in wait to ambush you is weird. Honestly, if you believe this you need to discuss it with your GP. To be a FP and a Labour activist brings its own problems. I think you need to rethink your expectations of others. My opposition to FP values are that logic and reason show it up for what it is. As for Labour, they have become the enemy of the working class. If you can’t see this, then ask yourself what they did for the poor during their time in power. Next to nothing, so don’t blame the electorate blame yourself and your party.
Graham,
The reason why FPs are “anti” Roman Catholicism is because they believe that the Roman Catholic church has rejected many key biblical doctrines but still tries to masquerade under the banner of Christianity. This distinguishes Roman Catholicism from other religions such as Islam, Hinduism, Atheism etc as these all openly reject key biblical doctrines but do not try to associate their beliefs with Christianity
Re – Charlie…
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I think you’re the one in need of a frontal lobotomy. Foam can be seen at the corners of your mouth.
You claim MacNeil ‘had no knowledge of the situation’. Sorry … No sane person can claim this. For all that you choose to ignore it, there’s plenty of evidence that the opposite is true.
Rich Tea, He claimed at the time that he didn’t and when I look at the length’s Labour went to with personal attacks prior to this I believe him. Personally the whole thing was in bad taste which turned people away from Labour. Now, you can speak about this until you are blue in the face but the only people who lost out was Labour. I’m surprised you didn’t blame him for the banking crisis as that was how twisted you and your’e party became. The proof of the pudding has been the last two elections where people like myself went against tradition and voted against. When I look at the recent candidates you wouldn’t have sent them to represent you on a community council. When Labour sheds itself of people like you and offers real policies that are for the benefit of the people and not the rich, I might, might consider them. Why are you so vocal about Labour ? Are you rich ? It is not about a fair society or helping the poor, as Labour only made the situation much worse
Newcomer without being funny I don’t follow your point. The reason we have so many different christian groups is that their understanding of the bible is different which sometimes can be signifantly different. It appears that only the RC’s are true outcastes which I find worrying. The fundementals of christianity come from the church of Rome, the foundation of your own church comes from Rome.
The thing is that whenever I meet any individual member of any of the aforementioned churches and groups they seem like lovely people. But then, to catch some of these individuals in the throes of some of the politico-theological rows about their own denomination versus others, and it’s clear why the rocket range (is this how it came into the thread?) must be guarded against all of them!
How is it that people lose all sense of perspective when others propose to love the same God in a slightly, or even greatly, different way? We’re individuals, and intentionally so. Of course we won’t always agree which way is right, but with the same final destination in mind, what is so wrong with each of us choosing our own road? Some like the motorway, and some the scenic route and others will get lost several time along the way. Some like to think they are good at reading the map (bible) and others are happy to leave them to it. But none of this is a problem till we make it a problem by fighting about it.
As for the politicians, on a local level I’d go for the ones most likely to repair and grit the roads; on a national level I’d go for the ones who’ll get the tax down to a level that lets me keep my car on the road; and on an international level I’d like my journey to stop short of a federal Europe!
Happy New Year to all!
Graham,
I don’t think its true to say that all christian groups have a “different” understanding of the bible. All the Scottish presbyterian churches (CoS, FC, FCC, FP, APC etc) subscribe to the same confession ie the Westminster Confession of Faith (most, if not all, of the above denominations have a link the WCF on their website)
I wouldn’t say the RCC is unique in its position – I would put Mormons and JWs in the same category. I think the reason the focus is normally on the RCC is because the number of RCs globally is so huge.
I would disagree with your last point as I believe that the “fundamentals” of Christianity come from the Bible.
Puzzled Incomer, I’m not sure that the CoS subscribe to the confession of faith and I would hardly think that you could expect the RCC to do so. As for the bible, there are more than twice the number of books within it before being edited down by the RCC prior to the reformation. The James 6th edition of the bible is almost an exact translation of the bible used by the RCC. The order of Sunday service is a modification on the RCC service. This is why I find it difficult to understand the FP position. All the best fo 2012.
Come off it Rich Tea, the Rocket Range fiasco was a red herring by the local Labour party to disguise the fact it was the Labour party who were cutting jobs. It was Angus Brendan Macneil and Alastair Allan who led the fight which changed the decision. The public are not daft they know who are the good guys.
I don’t know if I’m keen on independence but the rocket range was a Labour Party own goal. In fact it was an insult to the the intelligence of the people here on these islands. The Labour Party have become a joke with the same old fools leading a few brainless wonders. They have become just as bad as the Tories.
Is the Stornoway Labour Party run by the FP’s ? What about the chairman and the secretary are they strong FP’s ? How do their views fit in with the rest of the party ? This is something we should know before the council elections. It would be stupid to replace one bad lot with another.
Who knows, The Labour party do not want to talk about anything. Ian X was the only reporter asking them tough questions and Matt Bruce punished him by taking him of the news list. They are wankers .
I find it strange that a political party refuses to talk about what it stands for. In fact most shout from the roof top’s to get as much attention as possible. Maybe they have a new strategy of getting people to talk about then by being quiet. Somehow I don’t think it will work.
Re Roddy
There is little doubt that Mr Allan is a highly professional politician, capable and committed.
However, capable and committed politicians do not go to Washington on junkets when the jobs of the largest private employer in their constituency are threatened.
Mr MacNeill would not have survived in any oither political constituency in Scotland for his behavior at that time. (It was not just this one stupid mistake but also a number of others.) He would have not have been re-selected by his own party.
A triumph of blind loyalty over basic common sense!
Rich Tea, it is just a witch hunt by the labour party because Angus Macneil asked the pokice to investigate cash for honours. The crown prosecution came back with the statement where the complexity of the deceipt was to deep to continue with the prosecution. Since he raised the complaint there has been an ongoing campaign by labour to try and discredit the man.
You keep ignoring it was the labour government who were going to close the range, not Angus Macneil. Mr Macneil assisted by Alasdair Allan led the succesful campaign to keep it open. When it came to the election the electorate was not as daft as labour thought they were and saw through the shoddy scam.
The problem labour has it treats the electorate with total disregatd across Scotland. You have to follow your masters in London but the electorate does NOT. The source of your discontentment is that the people have found you people out and your’e now bitter. The labour party in Scotland has done more for independence than the SNP could ever do. Forcing the people of Scotland to accept new labour (tory style) policies suited to the SE of England has driven the people to the brink of independence. Thank you for your contribution, well done.
Re – Roddy
Isn’t it convenient that you think a fair question is a witch hunt?
Do you think the SNP Government will not review procedures and facilities in the way previous governments have done in the past and in every other country in the world? Or are they going to be so unique that they will never do this? If so, what are the long-term consequences of such irresponsible behaviour?
Apart from making assertions, do you have a strand of evidence that MacNeil played any real role in the saving of the base? Apart, that is, from flying off to Washington when the decision was about to be made…?
If so, instead of frothing at the mouth, I think it’s about time we heard it.
Rich Tea, like when you were advocacy, you tend to degenerate any debate by using terms like frothing at the mouth. This adds nothing to your argument.
As for the rocket range, it was labour who wanted to close it, not Macneil. No matter what you say or try to muddy the water, the plain facts are that the problem lay with labour……………….End of story
Maybe Rich Tea will tell me why Labour decided to give Mrs Thatcher a state funeral?
I no longer know who the Labour Party represent, can you tell me Rich Tea ?
Re – the Gang of Three!!!
Can you tell me what relevance any of your questions are?
The Labour Government merely set out to review the future of the Base. MacNeil failed to respond in any intelligent way to this threat. There are documents that show this, where he writes about how Army Cadets will have to use tents when the base is closed rather than using any strong arguments. such as the impact on either St Kilda or the local economy. So Roddy is clearly wrong when he argues that Mr MacNeil knew nothng about the threat of closure. I’m afraid it’s in black and white that he did!
But then, Roddy, there is a lot more froth than anything else to your agument. (‘When I was Advocacy….????) When it came to fighting for jobs in the Benbecula Range, MacNeil didn’t even bother to take his jacket off.
PS – Surely even the most loyal MacNeil supporters can spot the difference between the way their man behaved, flying off to Washington on a freebie when the decision was about to be announced, and how Angus Robertson MP acted when the Kinloss base was under threat.
Only one of the two SNP MPs took his jacket off and started a real campaign.
Guess which one showed intelligence and courage …?
What gang of three ? I ask a question and you stick a label on me. Obviously you don’t know, is there anybody who can tell me ?
I’m now not just confused, but utterly baffled! I thought the thread was about Christian denominations and Christmas. Now it seems to be about politicians and the rocket range………Did I miss something? When did Labour give Maggie Thatcher a state funeral? I thought she was still alive! And what would her funeral, whatever form it takes at the time, have to do with celebration of Christmas? And although I can see a connection between Maggie and Westminter, I don’t think there is a connection between Maggie and the Westminster Confession of Faith which I believe to be something quite different and to have happened long before Maggie’s days.
Re – Alec John
I’ll have a stab at answering your question when someone tells me why a certain gentleman flew to Washington when there was an important decision to be made.
Would a real politician like Angus Robertson have done that?
Unbelievable, what has macneil got to do with me?
Alec John the labour party’s policies are the same as the Tory’s. All about big business and the toff’s with no interest in the poor or workers. The further you are from London the less they care about you. The cuts that Cameron has made would just be the same under Miliband, Alasdair Darling confessed this before leaving office. Had they still been in power the rocket range would have been closed and they would have blamed Angus Macneil. Rich Tea know’s this and that’s why he won’t answer the question. He has a personal problem with Angus Macneil because found labour out.
The question is, why did labour decide to close the range in the first place ?
Re – Roddy
They didn’t. They simply reviewed its future. Mr MacNeil failed to respond in any full or organised way to the documents issued by the Government at that time.
Let’s agree on something and leave it alone.
Wouldn’t it be great to have a proper, hard-working, professional MP like Angus Robertson? He wouldn’t have flown off to Washington on a freebie when the future of the work-force was uncertain. He’d have stayed at home and organised a campaign.
The reason Rich Tea is ignoring you is that Roddy’s is a 100% right. If you think back to 1997 Tony Blair adopted almost all of Thatcher’s policies with the poor suffering for the whole time Labour were in power.
People like Rich Tea have amnesia when you ask them why we have so many cuts today. Let me remind him, Labour almost bankrupted the UK, you can’t trust them.
He talks about his personal issue with Angus Brendan, he should look closer to home. What did the former Labour MP and MSP ever do for these islands other than to sell us out.
I asked a guy at work ame question and he couldn’t answer me properly. Up until the last election in the spring I had always voted Labour. A couple of months before the election a couple of SNP people came to my door. After I told that I always voted Labour they left. I thought about what they said and I began to wonder and started to think why I voted Labour. I talked to educated people and they said the same as the people from the SNP. The guy at work only wanted to talk about Angus Macneil just like Rich Tea. This is what attracted me to ask the question in the first place. I now see the Labour folk just go on about people the do not like and cant tell anybody why they should vote Labour. Im glad some people can a least give an answer.
Re George
Why is it a ‘personal issue’ to ask why the Westminster political representative for the Western Isles went to Washington when the jobs of the largest private employer in his area were threatened?
Surely, to use Alec John’s words, some people can at least take their jackets off and try to give an answer?
Alec John the Labour Party is a broad “church” from Trade Unionists to street activists, from students to fellows of St. Andrew’s University It’s membership is broad. The problem is that over the past ten years it has listened more to the academics and business leaders and not to the activists. There is a sea change happening within the party and it is happening from within. Unfortunately some of the old dinosaurs are still trying to cling on to the mantra “vote Labour because.” This is an arrogance borne out of disconnection, too many career Politicians who are so far removed from the real struggles that they no longer care. The SNP are a one policy party they are connected only by the need to create an Independent Scotland, Salmond is further removed from Rosanna Cunningham than Ed Miliband is from Johanne Lamont.
Now with an overwhelming majority and the chance to prove themselves they shy away from their goal.
The question you should be asking is:
Why if this Nirvana, this promised land and prosperity for all is only being kept from the Scottish people by the Westminster Government and all Scotland’s economic woes are the result of being part of the United Kingdom are they not pushing for an Independence referendum this year?
Why must they make the Scottish people suffer any more than they have to?
The truth is that independence would mean the end of the SNP, Alec Salmond would no longer be able to parade around in his tartan as a victim of unionism, swelling his party’s coffers for their fight against the oppressors. Who will they blame when the Westminster bogeyman has gone?
The Labour Party is changing but until people like yourself ask the right people, the right questions and get the right answers nobody will know.
Rich Tea, it appears there are a number of things which you are not very sure about. Firstly you don’t appear to know who in our society your party represents. You also appear to accept that Thatcherite policies are the way forward when your party ran with her policies when in office. You don’t appear to know why your party decided to grant Thatcher a state funeral. Your party allowed poverty to grow to extreme levels without a care. Are you aware that your current shadow chancelor won’t reverse the current Tory cuts. This will result in the destruction of the NHS and welfare state which you support. You seem to be in favour of drastic changes to our society where poverty will be the norm.
In your own words you appear not to be sure of the events during Labour’s proposed closure of the Uist rocket range. You originally say that Mr Macneil should have been in Uist helping the workforce during the announcement of job losses. In your next post in response to being told it was Labour who were closing the base, you say that it was merely a review. What was it, proposed closure or a review ? Angus Macneil was in the US on official business but it still did not prevent him from keeping the base open. Now I know you and your party friends hate Mr Macneil which is easly seen through by the electorate, who re-elected him with a greater majority.
Finally, the Tory coastguard cuts came from a Labour blue print. We can safely assume had Labour returned to power they would have implemented these cuts and the local station may have been closed.
As a senior member of the local branch you appear to be misinformed and unsure what you stand for.
Re Alec John
The closure only nearly happened because MacNeil failed to object after the Government issued a paper relating to a review of the Base’s future. (The greatest problem he noted was that the Army Cadets who go down there might in future have to sleep in tents.) The MP failed to organise any campaign or proper response to the proposed closure. That’s a matter of record.
The decision to save the base clearly came as a surprise to MacNeil. (He had called for the resignation of the Scottish Secretary Jim Murphy for preventing its closure in a newspaper the previous week!) But why was he in Washington when the decision was announced?
Sorry, Alec John…
That should read ‘not preventing its closure’. No doubt he looked into his crystal ball before getting onto the plane to Washington.
Kevin Paterson, I can identify with you and beliefs, I might not agree with them all but there is some commonality. After the last term of Labour government I find I can no longer vote Labour. Although I’m not a fan of Alec Salmond I am now convinced the way forward is through independence. When I see a massive difference between the SE of England standard of living and the north I am convinced even more about independence. The Labour Party have become confused as to who they are working for, they have deserted the working class. Personally I don’t see any improvement in what Labour has to offer. The introduction of Lamont, Curran and Sarwar is more of the same, only re-inforced. It will still be London policies defeating the reason for having devolution. London led policies are aimed at middle England, if Labour want to maintain the union they have to change. The electorate will not wait until Labour get their act together, if they ever do. Personally I have not heard a real reason for staying in the union. It is a sad day for Labour when people like me have abandoned Labour and the union.
When I read the trivia that idiots like Rich Tea have to offer I dispair. I have read a number comments that you have made over the last year which makes sense but many of your colleagues frighten me.
When you say the questions which I raised need to be asked more often you forget that the electorate aked a major question last May which is still to be answered. I do not wish to give offence but I’m fed up with the Labour Party.
I thank you for your comments re commonality between our views but I would say this to you although “Rich tea” may be being provocative with his statements regarding our MP where the range is concerned he is essentially correct:
The closure of the Hebrides Range was put forward by QinetiQ as part of the 5 yearly defence review, when the news broke the MSP was very prominent in his condemnation as was the MP. It was however the Local Labour Party that brought Jim Murphy, Iain Gray and Bob Ainsworth up for discussions. When the consultation was launched it was the WICLP who made submissions pointing out the folly of closing the range and rationalising the QinetiQ operations around their North Wales base. The MP made no submission to the consultation and could only persuade a Tory member of the Defence Select Committee to visit. It is also true that he called for the resignation of Jim Murphy two days before the announcement that the base was saved check Hansard for who Jim Murphy and the defence team congratulated for saving the base!
It is also true he was in Washington when the news that the base was saved came through.
Thanks, Kevin. All this, of course, should have come out at the time if the Gazette was anything like the proper, investigative newspaper the Western Isles needs.
I mean – what kind of politician asks for the resignation of a Government Minister before a decision is made? Talk about jumping the gun …
And Roddy claims this is not a political issue …?
Thanks Kevin, the manner in which the local Labour Party goes about trying to discredit Angus Macneil does their own reputation more harm than good. Like myself there are many people who are fed up with the torrent of abuse directed at Macneil. Although I don’t belong to any political party I am not slow in airing my opinion. When I take issue with some SNP policies we can talk about things in a constructive manner without necessarly agreeing. When I try to do the same with the local Labour people all you get is abuse and on the odd occassion the threat of violence.
When I look back at how the last two Labour parliamentary representatives performed it was one of the main reasons for changing from Labour to SNP. I can list numerous things where they let us down badly. During Labour’s long term in government they never passed any true socialist policies and actually caused economic damage to Scotland. You say that Labour is changing but I don’t see any evidence of this as Miliband and cronies blame the rag tag and bob tails for May’s disaster when the root of the problems lie with them. Like many others I see the shake of the Labour party in Scotland as a vehicle to give London bosses better control. The voice of Scotland will continue to be ignored. You may think that I’m being hard on Labour but that is how I see it. I don’t think Labour are anywhere near turning the corner…….time will tell,
The demands of the Scottish people differ from the English where middle England is given priority. Salmond know’s this and is prepared to give the people the socialist policies they want. On the otherhand the likes of Lamont, Sarwar and Curran will continue to dictate central policy not to cause any concerns south of the border.
As for the rocket range debate what you describe is not what I recall. As far as I am concerned I’m in no doubt who was weilding the axe.
These are my views and you may not like them. I don’t offer them to provoke anybody , I call it as I see it.
But what does it all have to do with Free Presbyterians and Christmas?
Re – Alec John
The truth of Kevin’s story about the Range is easily checked.
Rather than accepting other people’s words, everyone in the Western Isles can easily do it.
I’ve never read as much hog wash as I have about the Uist rocket range. It was Labour who were planning to close it and Macneil gets the blame. Who was going to close it, was it (a) Labour or (b) Macneil ? answer (a) Labour.
The Secretary of State for Scotland a cabinet member initiallly ignored the plight of the people of Uist until it was pointed out that any chances Labour had of regaining the Western Isles seat were totally lost. Even the vicious Tory cuts have excluded the rocket range. The question which we have to ask is why Labour wanted to close the range to make meagre savings.
For any Labour member to blame Angus Macneil for what they were going to do must be part of the let’s hate Angus Macneil group.
His Holiness is astounded. Treat the Bible with respect. It is the Word of God. Love God with all your heart and your neighbour as yourself.
Do you think that someone using the name Pope Pius in the manner above is both offensive ans sectarian ? I do.
‘Gosh’ is cryptic blasphemy. ‘N’ I don’t like John MacLeod either. Many are called but few are chosen. We are all part of the one threshing floor. That IS the fundamental point. For a more pointed analysis, read the Banner of Truth edition of the Letters of A.W. Pink. Now PINK did live in Stornoway ! I disagree with the manner in which A. W. Pink (the person) was recently alluded to in a recent edition of the FPCoS magazine
THE FPs / THE CATHOLICS and all NOMINAL religions – what is said “LEAVE THEM ALONE THEY ARE BLIND LEADERS OF THE BLIND” JOHN MACLEOD REPRESENTS EVERYTHING THAT IS UGLY AND BIGOTED ABOUT THE SCRIBES & PHARISEES HE LOVES SO MUCH – HE ALSO LOVES ATTENTION – SO – “LEAVE HIM ALONE”. WHICH IS SADLY (FOR HIM) WHERE HE IS TODAY – WITH HIS DOG & HIS AGA STOVE – TAUGHT BY A FATHER WHO WAS “HEAD OF SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY” AT THE FREE CHURCH COLLEGE – IT ALL SCREAMS “SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS” !!!!!!
I was brought up in the FP Church and we didn’t celebrate Christmas because his birth date was unknown – I do not attend any Church currently, but believe in a personal relationship with Jesus, and totally believe in keeping religion simple. The FP Church is simply very old fashioned and that’s pretty much it-it is what many Churches were like 100 years ago, similar I guess to i.e the Lower Church of England some time back….
I am with the Free Church of Scotland, and though the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland are not on the best of terms with the Free Church, I would like to point out that it shouldn’t matter what church a person goes to or what religion a person is, I live in a rural area where almost everyone goes to a church or worships a religion, some of my relatives (cousins etc.) are FPs, in the area no one stigmatizes someone because of their religion or church i.e. FPs are friends with people from Church of Scotland and the Free Church and Catholics as well and vice-versa. Why should the FP Church receive criticism for not believing in Christmas, as was said above: one, his birth dates are not known and two, it was traditionally a Catholic celebration (Christ Mass). I see Christmas as a day put aside in order to remember Jesus’ birth, I do not say he was born on Christmas day, I say that this day was put aside in order to remember Jesus Birth. So if a member of a political party is of a certain religion or church, think, is their religion the be-all and end-all or are you being unfair to them because of both your beliefs and theirs.
I did forget to mention, as far as celebrating around Christmas time, the FP Church celebrates New Years in true Scottish traditional form. On New Years day we had a celebration meal and presents, the same as Christmas, including a thanksgiving service at Church, so we never missed out in that respect.
Also, politically wise, interestingly I found that the FP and the Catholic Church had similar views and made a stand on some issues together. I remember one meeting where it was only FPs and local Catholic Parishioners that attended, to stand up for the same cause. I have heard both Catholic and FP sermons, and couldn’t tell the difference, I guess as they are both very traditional.